Bonobos, our closest primate relatives, resist male violence by increasing female cooperation. It seems that female cooperation is the only potent agent that is evolutionary stable enough to allow this to occur.
Is this the same monkey tribe that had all the adult males wiped out by eating poisoned fruit? Then the elder female monkeys raised the baby male monkeys and they were never violent. They bred out the violence.
I remember when the baboon story came out. I found the origin and the researchers‘ comments and to my nonsurprise, feminist circles had fudged the conclusion.
The remaining non-dominant males and next crop of males were still violent: compared to the dead males, they were just as violent towards male peers, but less violent towards female baboons and baboons lower on the social hierarchy. I wouldn’t be surprised if the old dynamic returned via migrating males and population growth.
Male socialisation celebrates and encourages male violence. Look at video games, tv shows, movies, pornography, etc. Media developed for the male gaze demonstrates males being in a dominant power position exploiting and taking advantage of a vulnerable subject. The brutal tough guy saves the day and gets the girl.
Males are raised to believe that their masculinity is defined by disempowering and dehumanising others. Males grow up with this aggression instilled into them and they have to unlearn that dysfunctional behaviour. They need to redefine their masculinity for themselves. Their masculinity should be defined by their compassion, strength (both emotional and physical), generosity, fairness, and any other healthy and prosocial value they find strength in. Males (and some females w internalised misogyny) need to learn to celebrate and appreciate their differences with females instead of demonising and disempowering women.
Women self-reflect regularly. We do it here at FDS all the time. We unlearn shitty female socialisation and redefine our values and standards. Males need to do this too.
Another important note I will raise, as I daresay it will come up in this thread. Testosterone does NOT increase violence and aggression. High testosterone increases competitiveness. See:
Males should channel this competitiveness into healthy outlets, e.g. sports, work ethic, competing with himself (self-improvement/introspection) to be the best he can be to level up in life and potentially attract a partner who he values in turn.
Epigenetics is a thing. To boil a complicated subject down, the environment affects which genes are expressed. Nature and nurture are not mutually exclusive. Perhaps men are biologically more prone to violence, but society brings it out of them
Whilst I agree that male aggression exists in the animal kingdom, to use it as an excuse for males is a massive cop out. It’s important to recognise that humans have evolved significantly and that’s hardly an excuse in this day and age. The “mUh BiOLoGy” excuse is used for rape and it’s not okay.Fair enough our primal instincts may play into how we behave sometimes, but that’s quite rare and it shouldn’t be getting the better of us. We have evolved to control our primal behaviours. Humans have self-control and discipline, not enforcing these skills is a weakness.
EXACTLY! a man can’t kill or maim another man and get away with the “muh biology” excuse so why do we let them use it as a justification when they harm women?
Unknown member
Sep 06, 2022
It's both testosterone and socialization. can't ignore either of them. every human being - and also men, i guess - is a mix of their environment and their genetic predisposition. testosterone has a huge impact on a person's body and the brain is part of the body, therefore it is impacted by that hormone as well. so i'd say it's both (and maybe there's even a third or more factors).
that being sad, it doesn't mean that recognizing the role of testoterone in male violence is a way to justify or even allow it. if they want to do so, then let's just lock all menin cages since their hormones make them behave like fucking animals. i'd be ok with that.
the ifference between humans and other primates is exactly our capacity to think and hold control over our instincts. for example, whenever i see a man being a fucking misogynistic POS, i have the instinct to murder him. hoever, i don't act upon that instinct because 1- i might be the one injured/dead and 2- it's a crime and i don't want to go to jail. men are entitled and violent because they CAN, regardless of the cause.
I don't think there's consensus but I recommend reading Delusions of Gender by Cordelia Fine. She takes apart historical psychological experiments focused on gender differences and other socialized differences.
Bonobos, our closest primate relatives, resist male violence by increasing female cooperation. It seems that female cooperation is the only potent agent that is evolutionary stable enough to allow this to occur.
Male socialisation celebrates and encourages male violence. Look at video games, tv shows, movies, pornography, etc. Media developed for the male gaze demonstrates males being in a dominant power position exploiting and taking advantage of a vulnerable subject. The brutal tough guy saves the day and gets the girl.
Males are raised to believe that their masculinity is defined by disempowering and dehumanising others. Males grow up with this aggression instilled into them and they have to unlearn that dysfunctional behaviour. They need to redefine their masculinity for themselves. Their masculinity should be defined by their compassion, strength (both emotional and physical), generosity, fairness, and any other healthy and prosocial value they find strength in. Males (and some females w internalised misogyny) need to learn to celebrate and appreciate their differences with females instead of demonising and disempowering women.
Women self-reflect regularly. We do it here at FDS all the time. We unlearn shitty female socialisation and redefine our values and standards. Males need to do this too.
Another important note I will raise, as I daresay it will come up in this thread. Testosterone does NOT increase violence and aggression. High testosterone increases competitiveness. See:
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC4464174/
https://blogs.scientificamerican.com/observations/testosterone-bumps-up-status-seeking-behavior-not-aggressive-risk-taking/
Males should channel this competitiveness into healthy outlets, e.g. sports, work ethic, competing with himself (self-improvement/introspection) to be the best he can be to level up in life and potentially attract a partner who he values in turn.
Epigenetics is a thing. To boil a complicated subject down, the environment affects which genes are expressed. Nature and nurture are not mutually exclusive. Perhaps men are biologically more prone to violence, but society brings it out of them
It's more than nurture. See Demonic Males, by biological anthropologist Richard Wrangham.
Male aggression is throughout the animal kingdom, particularly in primates.
It's both testosterone and socialization. can't ignore either of them. every human being - and also men, i guess - is a mix of their environment and their genetic predisposition. testosterone has a huge impact on a person's body and the brain is part of the body, therefore it is impacted by that hormone as well. so i'd say it's both (and maybe there's even a third or more factors).
that being sad, it doesn't mean that recognizing the role of testoterone in male violence is a way to justify or even allow it. if they want to do so, then let's just lock all menin cages since their hormones make them behave like fucking animals. i'd be ok with that.
the ifference between humans and other primates is exactly our capacity to think and hold control over our instincts. for example, whenever i see a man being a fucking misogynistic POS, i have the instinct to murder him. hoever, i don't act upon that instinct because 1- i might be the one injured/dead and 2- it's a crime and i don't want to go to jail. men are entitled and violent because they CAN, regardless of the cause.
It's biological and then culturally reinforced. It wouldn't be found university throughout time and place if it didn't have an innate element.
I don't think there's consensus but I recommend reading Delusions of Gender by Cordelia Fine. She takes apart historical psychological experiments focused on gender differences and other socialized differences.