I was inspired by this post, because it's one of my favorites from the FDS subreddit and the examples really spoke to me. I made a longer comment on it which I wanted to turn into a more comprehensive list of my experience with LV and HV behavior.
This being my personal perspective, I am focusing on one main point: the difference between LV and HV doesn't just lie in what and how much someone does for you, but which attitudes drive their behavior. The way someone talks and acts around the things they do for you is the really interesting and important bit.
A LVM might do a lot of things for you, even things generally labeled HV. But the two major signs that he's not doing them out of genuine conviction and love are:
a) he will never ever let you live it down — he is keeping score.
b) he will make you work for it.
Behaviors result from beliefs and attitudes, but you can't always reverse-engineer the underlying beliefs from "good" behaviors alone. This is coming from someone who has been with a man who was HV on paper (wealthy, educated, ambitious, friendly, hard-working, politically progressive), who often said and did the "right" things that are supposedly indicative of a great personality, but didn't actually possess the character traits that make a great long-term partner.
Sometimes the differences are extremely obvious, but sometimes they're more subtle, making you second-guess yourself because you can't really put a finger on why you're dissatisfied. He does what you need him to do, after all. This is actually part of an LVM's strategy: he is keeping up the facade of good boyfriend so you never have a "good enough reason" to complain.
I'll try to illustrate, but keep in mind that this is just my own experience which is bound to be limited. The examples are drawn from my own past relationships, mainly the contrast between my ex and current partner. I'm not pointing out behaviors that are obviously malicious and shitty. Instead I'll be focusing on things that might seem manageable or solveable through ComMuniCatiOn, especially if you’ve never/rarely experienced healthy relationships before. However, as we’ll see, these things reflect a certain set of beliefs that are practically unchangeable. So if you ever encounter them, it’s best to cut your losses and move on.
Housework
May look HV: He does things around the house. He is not generally lazy and knows how to keep a space clean. He even has high standards for cleanliness and dislikes chaos.
Ways he will skew the score in his favor:
"innocently" reminds you that he did X or Y — when confronted, says that he just wants his efforts to be recognized
makes little jabs at your standards, e.g. that you "could stand to relax a bit"
sometimes strategically makes it a point to do a bit more than usual for a short while
doesn't readily acknowledge the reality of you doing more than him, only if you explicitly lay it out (and then he’ll ask you why you are keeping score)
alternatively, exaggerates his incompetence in a humorous way ("I would be totally lost without her, haha!")
often points out how stressed and overworked he is
concern trolls you when you try and point out that you're doing too much — "wow, I had no idea, are you really that overwhelmed? I guess I can do more..." (Nevermind that he acts like taking out the trash is a Herculean effort when he does it)
downplays the importance of a clean home but actually enjoys (and even expects) it
points out messes you made
takes any chance to enjoy being served: frequently wants to go out to eat with the explicit purpose of "taking a break" from chores, doesn't help when he's a houseguest — he's showing you he only "gave in" to your "nagging" but will revert back to laziness when given the chance
Ways he will make you work for it:
dismisses instruction or guidance from you, insists on doing things "his way" instead (which often means not doing them at all)
is only able to do things once you taught him exactly what and how to do it
needs lots of reassurance that he is doing well
always stays at his current housekeeping skill level, never improves on his own or tries to adapt to your standards, even after years, unless you continuously teach him
What this says about him: He will (partially) learn to do things the way they need to be done or you want them done, he might actually become a decent contributor to your household, but you will have to keep tabs on him and endure his whiny/sarcastic comments for the rest of eternity because he will never be instrinsically motivated. He feels like housework is something you assign to him, rather than his natural responsibility.
What good attitude looks like:
sucks it up and does what adults need to do — if he ever does complain, he doesn't insinuate that it's your fault for "making him do" chores
doesn't draw attention to the things he does
picks his pace back up when he's been slacking off without needing to be reminded
acknowledges the reality of your division of labor, knows he has blind spots
acknowledges that women are socialized to take on more housework and that he is benefitting from it, shows his gratitude and admiration and strives for more fairness
when you ask him to do more, he does his best to fit it into his schedule instead of debating you on it
is happy to learn from you, observes your way of doing things without you needing to teach him
remembers your preferences and acts on them
doesn't just take responsibility in his own home, would never let friends/family serve him without helping
supports you if you fall behind on your own duties and never makes you feel bad because of it
actively tries to alleviate your burden
is happy taking on tasks as his sole responsibility
Examples: On weekends, my boyfriend gets up before me and lets me sleep in to make us breakfast. Not once did he ask me to "return the favor". I generally only help with cooking if I want to and no matter how much I did, he always does the cleanup. He silently observes the way I do things (e.g. how I cut vegetables) and adopts it. At any social event, he is the first (and often only one) to jump up and help. He is generally very attentive not just towards the host but the other guests as well, filling up their drinks, taking away empty plates etc. Never makes a show of any of it.
Money
May look HV: He is wealthy and happy to share his wealth with you. When you want something, he will get it for you. He says "what is mine is yours". His gifts are always expensive and your vacations always luxurious.
Ways he will skew the score in his favor:
doesn't actually have to make any sacrifices whatsoever to spoil you because he has so much money to spend that it's no difference to him
smothers you with gifts that leave you with a pang of guilt
uses his financial contributions as leverage in discussions that have nothing to do with money (e.g. expects to get a free pass on neglecting chores because he paid for that trip last month)
humblebrags about the things he gives you to others
suspects that stay at home mothers/housewives get the better end of the deal
fears being taken advantage of financially / his generosity being taken for granted— this can come in the form of frequently reminding you of his contributions, or quickly jumping to the conclusion that a woman is using a man for his money when observing other relationships
showers you in gifts but isn't as generous towards friends or family
Ways he will make you work for it:
expects a “balance” of his financial contributions with other less tangible services that you provide, points out when the balance is "off" in his eyes
gives you gifts that interfere with your agency in some way or force you to change your ways in order to appropriately appreciate them (e.g. devices/gadgets you never used before and never expressed an interest in)
is somewhat disappointed when you don’t go over the top with gratitude
is surprisingly stingy with things he doesn't consider important even though he has the money, confuses this for financial responsibility
gives you money to spend but then subtly questions what you spend it on
What this says about him: He does share with you, as long he gets the final say. He would never give you free reign over (a part of) his income or make any kind of real sacrifice. And yes, he is keeping score and feels like contributing more financially gives him leverage over you.
What good attitude looks like:
respects that you might have different spending habits than him and doesn't challenge them on principle
has a good enough grip on his finances to know what he can and cannot afford, so he doesn't need to be paranoid
gives without expecting anything back
gifts are appropriate to his financial situation, the time you've been together, and your comfort level
doesn't weigh financial contributions against unpaid work like emotional labor
takes joy and pride in being able to give whatever he can
makes real sacrifices and puts his own wants aside to make someone else happy
allows you full control over at least a part of his income
giving mindset towards everyone he is close to, not just you
Examples: In addition to paying for dates, my boyfriend pays for about 80% of the food and drinks we consume at home, even though we don’t live together. He will get anything we need unprompted. He doesn't give lavish gifts because he is not able to at the moment, but always makes sure to regularly get me small things he knows I would like. In his last relationship, he bore almost all of the (quite substantial) financial burden and never framed this as unfair or being taken advantage of, he stands by it despite them not working out and her never paying him back. Is generous towards everyone, not just me, and is genuinely the most happy when everyone else is taken care of.
Communication
May look HV: You two can talk anything out. He is always open for a discussion. He has a way with words and can get his point across effectively. He is intelligent and level-headed.
Ways he will skew the score in his favor:
uses communication to detract from actual problems or to fake intimacy — this is a little hard to spot, but it's basically "talking more about how great your relationship is than actually making it great"
thinks rational discussion is the solution to everything and that he can talk you out of viewpoints or emotions that he isn't comfortable with
doesn't have clear boundaries about what he is willing to discuss and when, grows increasingly irritable instead — uses this as justification to spring discussions on you without confirming that you have the mental capacity for it right now
uses lots of rhetorical devices even in informal conversation
talks more than he listens
subtly raises his voice to get you to back off
readily communicates negative things, but thinks that the positive ones are "simply understood" and don't need to be said
Ways he will make you work for it:
thinks that communication is just a matter of who has the better arguments, skeptical by default; disguises this as being a critical thinker
prioritizes pragmatism and "logic" over empathy, expects you to contain your emotions in favor of his preferred style of communication
turns things into a debate that, in hindsight, shouldn't have been debated at all
has pretty specific requirements for how you need to say things before he will listen and empathize (e.g. getting hung up on a single word)
ever shuts you out or bails on you during a hard conversation
debates you on the level of verbal reassurance / confirmation you need
has little interest in communication that doesn't serve a "purpose" in his eyes, e.g. will spend hours discussing politics with you, but rarely sends you a simple good morning text
What this says about him: Conversations are a way for him to display his intellect and superiority, not a way to connect with you. He may talk at you a lot, but rarely with you. He may use the fact that you communicate so "well" as proof that there's nothing wrong with the relationship / that you can work everything out, while in reality, you're in for discussions upon discussions that never translate to a change of actions.
What good attitude looks like:
listens more than he talks
always takes your side of things into account without you having to "prove" your viewpoint to him
communication rests on a foundation of empathy and appreciation, not "cold hard facts"
listens to what you said, doesn't dismiss the content of what you said based on how you said it (as long it was civil, of course)
doesn't try to "win" arguments
knows what he is willing to talk about and makes it clear
understands that communication between humans is often emotional and is willing to endure your emotions even if they're not comfortable
understands when talking is not the solution / not enough
talks to be understood, not to intimidate / impress
introspective and able to talk about his feelings, not just his thoughts / ideas
practices communication that builds trust and intimacy, even if it's just "small talk"
makes an effort to accommodate your communication preferences
Examples: My boyfriend is quieter than me by nature, but he knows I appreciate knowing about his inner world, so he readily opened up to me. He isn't the biggest texter either, but sends me sweet messages anyway because I like it (and not because I had to tell him to do it). He is the one who initiates 90% of our phone calls. He is very empathetic and understanding even when I'm overreacting a little. We don't fight. He stays present and affectionate even during hard conversations. He makes it safe for me to tell him anything.
Feminism/misogyny
May look HV: He seems to be ready to challenge the patriarchy and might even call himself a feminist. He reads and sends you feminist articles and podcasts. He seems to know all the right things to say and might even give big speeches about equality in front of others.
Ways he will skew the score in his favor:
cherry-picks feminist (mainly libfem) talking points that are of special interest to him (and often it will be about sex)
insinuates you're not the "right" kind of feminist / need to be more up-to-date
is very pro-equality when it doesn't cost him anything, but gets defensive when he would need to give up something that’s relevant to him (e.g. stop watching his favorite comedian who turned out to be a sexual predator)
likes pointing out that he’s progressive
thinks men can become women by undergoing surgery and wearing make-up
reminds you that he is one of the good ones and other men are way worse when you point out something sexist he did / said
says women are at least partially at fault for the continuation of patriarchy because they choose bad partners
Ways he will make you work for it:
seems to slightly envy the “bachelor lifestyle” (e.g. partying and hooking up) and might be delaying big commitments like marriage, so you feel the need to “prove” to him that the stable partnered life is better
doesn't stand up for you and expects you to be able to do it yourself because you're a grown woman who shouldn't need his help, right?
suggests feminists need to care about men's issues as well
needs your help feeling comfortable expressing his feminine side instead of working out his relationship with his gender on his own
doesn’t know a lot about the less trendy / deeper issues of women’s rights and depends on you to educate him
will get so worked up that sometimes you have to calm him down
supports you because you're his SO, but throws other women under the bus
frequently comments on other women's appearance and has many seemingly innocuous suggestions about what you could change about yours
What it says about him: He is a "feminist" all right. The kind who knows it's trendy to be "woke" and "get with the times", but he isn't willing to do any work towards equality in his own life. He feels talking about it should be enough.
What good attitude looks like:
actively rejects gender roles and toxic masculinity
doesn't think believing you are a woman makes you one, acknowledges the biological reality of womanhood
knows that he doesn't know what it's like to be a woman
openly challenges toxic male bullshit
knows what real women look like and appreciates your natural beauty
doesn't just support the "sexy" parts of feminism, makes an effort to learn about things that don’t directly concern him
understands the privileges he's grown up with as a man
listens to and empathizes with your experiences, but doesn't get lost in self-righteous anger
understands your need for safety and your skepticism towards strange men
doesn't try to talk you into believing he's a good guy, he shows you that he is
supports feminism without proudly parading any label associated with it
respects all women, even if they're not close to him
has healthy role models (male and female), favorite artists, etc.
Examples: My boyfriend is very tall and has a deep voice, so he knows that people take him more seriously by default. He uses this to draw attention to people who need it at the moment and happily lets others have the spotlight. He values monogamy and doesn't have respect for perpetually single dudes. He was fully supportive of his mother's divorce and is disappointed in his father for not being a better husband. Instead he looks up to his older brother who's a great husband and dad. He is proud to be openly cutesy and romantic with me and didn’t need encouragement from me in that regard.
Family/friends/social activities
May look HV: He goes with you to all the important events and you’re welcome in his social circle as well. He is well-dressed and well-mannered. He can impress at the dinner table with his knowledge and achievements.
Ways he will skew the score in his favor:
favors talking about himself, tends to withdraw when he can’t be at the center of attention
main way of relating to others is through work, accomplishments, or material possessions
focused on and attentive towards you, but less interested in the people who are important to you
his language reveals that he thinks social events are a kind of chore to him
insists on things like “bro nights” that are harmless in nature, but somehow seem to be specifically designed to get away from you/your family
questions your reasons for declining an invitation
subtle criticisms of your family/friends (that are not related to toxic behavior) that might be mistaken for simple comments/observations, but you start to notice it’s turning into a habit
will make comments or “suggestions” about your behavior that insinuate he doesn’t like your style of socializing
compares your closest relationships to some superficial relationships of his
despite claiming he is an introvert / feels drained by person X, he has a hard time actually setting boundaries — this makes him look more sociable than he is and also gives him more ammunition to complain
small acts of rejection like avoiding eye contact, waiting a bit too long before answering you, latching onto someone else for a 1-on-1 conversation and making it look more important than it is
Ways he will make you work for it:
you have to remind him to write a card, buy a gift, etc. and even if he’s known the person for many years, he needs you to tell him what to get specifically
has a hard time making himself at home and being at ease even at places he’s been to many times — what looks like respectful restraint at first is just a reason to make people coddle him
you have to make sure he gets enough attention and spotlight, otherwise he’ll feel “excluded”
mostly leaves you to fend for yourself in his social circle, the burden of connecting with his friends/family is solely on you — he says it’s because he doesn’t want to force anything / that you don’t need a cheerleader
pits social events of different importance against each other as if they were the same thing — you have to come to his obnoxious uncle’s birthday in “exchange” for him coming to your sister’s wedding
his default answer to an invitiation is usually hesitation (even if he does come at the end)
debates your priorities instead of just accepting what and who is important to you
states boundaries/preferences in a way that feels like a hard negotiation rather than an invitation to compromise, e.g. “but only if we’re back home by 10” vs. “I’d like to go to bed early today”
What it says about him: He resents having to expend social energy to the benefit of others and will try to avoid it. He might recognize when it’s necessary to do it anyway, but he will make sure you don’t forget how much of a favor he’s doing you. No matter how much you try to make him feel comfortable, he’ll always be somewhat guarded or uneasy.
What good attitude looks like:
is able to enjoy himself without you needing to entertain him
feels lucky he gets to spend time with the people who matter most to the one that matters most to him
you don’t need to convince him to come, because he wants to be there
establishes his own connection to your friends/family, doesn’t depend on you for holding a conversation with them
empathizes with people based on their feelings, personalities and experiences, not just what they are like on paper
brings thoughtful gifts unprompted
friendly towards everyone by default, but won’t tolerate bullshit
sometimes prioritizes his friends/family over you, because he knows a relationship can’t replace them — and is therefore understanding when you do the same
you’re a unit and he’s proud to show you off, but you still preserve your autonomy
proactively asks about your time/energy limits
checks in on you
makes sure you know that he had a good time
Examples: Current partner couldn’t wait for us to meet our respective families and is more than happy to join me for any event, no matter how “insignificant”. Has his own quality conversations with my friends/relatives without me needing to be there. He checks in on everyone and offers his assistance. He shields me from anyone in the extended circles that might be annoying or off-putting and doesn't seek out their company by himself either.
Acts of service
May look HV: He drives you everywhere, carries your heavy bags, gets your coffee in the morning. He is handy and can repair stuff, or at least knows whom to call to do it. He likes saying “don’t worry, I already got it taken care of”.
Ways he will skew the score in his favor:
tells you stories of how badly other men in his social circle treat their wives / girlfriends in a smug / superior way
likes playing the hero a little too much, maybe even makes a big deal out of small annoyances so he can come in and be the savior
sometimes says that society puts unfair expectations on men
when observing other couples, more easily recognizes what the men do for their partners than vice versa, perceives mismatched couples as equal
does things for you that you have to reciprocate if you don’t want to look like a jerk (public proposals come to mind)
likes to somewhat excessively declare what he intends to do or what he believes his job as your partner is
when you have an argument, he will very deliberately do something nice for you that doesn’t address the original conflict but makes him look good — it’s to give you a guilty conscience
he playfully asks “and what do I get?” / “how will you thank me?” — it seems like a silly little joke at first, but it starts to annoy you
Ways he will make you work for it:
overly self-conscious about his abilities as a partner, you have to assure him that you like what he does for you
complains about things “preventing” him from being more giving and loving, has suggestions about how you can put him in a better mood
requires to fulfill your “end of the bargain” by performing femininity and submissiveness for him (as opposed to resting in your natural womanhood)
What it says about him: He is racking up points he most definitely intends on cashing in later. Sometimes, he even has a slightly defiant and stubborn quality about him to show you he believes he has the moral high ground. Which is what everything is about to him, after all — it’s not about making you happy. The list of things he feels entitled to because he is “so nice” is seemingly endless. He thinks being a loving and caring partner requires feeling like it all the time, and it’s your job to make sure he feels like it.
What good attitude looks like:
lets his actions speak for themselves without needing to talk about them all the time
learns what you like and it makes him want to do it more, not less
no “but what do I get?” reflex whatsoever
draws boundaries if he feels drained instead of complaining about being “too nice”
knows that as a man, it’s his natural responsibility to lend his strength to and share his resources with others
knows that men and women have a different set of expectations to deal with and different roles to fulfill, doesn’t excessively question it (outside of what makes sense for your situation) and knows that men generally don’t get the shorter end of the stick
appreciates what you have to offer as a woman naturally, doesn’t need you to perform superficial aspects of femininity
Examples: My boyfriend gives me literal hours of backrubs and massages while insisting I don’t worry about returning the favor because he wants me to fully relax. He is loving and affectionate at all times, no matter the situation or mood. Nothing I do can “prevent” him from showing me his affection. He takes pride in being able to provide “masculine” services because he knows it’s easier for him, and he offers them willingly to any friend/relative, not just me (he will spend half his Saturday chopping the neighbors’ firewood, lol).
Summary
Beware men (and people in general) who:
make you "earn" the things they should be giving to you freely if they truly loved you
make you feel like their attention and affection can be revoked at any time if you "misbehave" in their eyes
make sure you never forget every little thing they ever did for you
go out of their way for you just to demand that you loosen their boundaries for them in return later on
seem to give you more than anyone else ever did, but somehow turn resentful over time — they never had a real desire or capacity to do those things for you, they expected a reward all along
say things that allude to the fact they feel somehow cheated in life for being "too nice"
do what you want them to do only if you agree to manage and regulate any emotions they might have as a result from it
Actual HVM have a realistic idea of what they can and cannot provide, clear boundaries around their time and energy, as well as the necessary skills to regulate themselves, so you can rest assured that whatever they do give you, they give happily and freely and without strings attached. Because they want to.
Omg I Love this post. It should be in the handbook! So much of this is my ex to the core, and this post wraps up the nature of scandinavian men! My ex looks high value to everyone around him. He makes about 200 000 dollars a year (the pep talks I gave him when he wanted to quit hi’s business!), loves being a father, but halfasses the tasks that isn’t the most visible (i.e. he’ll be coaching the kids team, but NeVeR clean their ears or cut their nails), never took me out or treated me, never did anything if it didn’t benefit him directly… I mean, the amount of effort it took me… He was a stubborn teen. I basically raised him. I argued and reasoned and the amount of emotional labour I put into putting up with him was huge. It all came to an end when I had started a new job and the amount of «invisible» domestic work + paid work became to much and I had a panic attack. He stood there looking at me - who couldn’t breathe - and «felt so bad for me». Not thinking two thoughts about how he could contribute to make My life bearable! Like it was my issue and he had nothing to do with this problem of mine. To this day people don’t understand why I would divorce «such a great guy». Thank you so much for this post, and for summing it up so beautifully 🙏🙏
"sometimes strategically makes it a point to do a bit more than usual for a short while"
Thank you for unlocking hilarious memories of my useless ex furiously doing like 3 chores in succession while loudly sighing and making an exaggerated production of the most basic shit like unloading a dishwasher. Comical
LetmethinkNo's comment mentions how a guy will only do things for their kids if it makes other people think he's a good dad . My own father uses this tactic but he would do it with money instead of tasks. He would mostly spend money on things other people see, for example he ensured that we had expensive sneakers and clothes to wear but he wouldn't pay for any tutoring or extra classes that we might need. He will take the family on very expensive vacations but not have a college fund, or good life insurance policies for us He does the same to his wife. He will buy her a very expensive car and jewellery but won't spend money on things that matter to her like a kitchen renovation or a small business. He rather be seen as a good husband than actually be a good husband, and these tactics work becuase we live in a sexist society in which men are praised for the bare minimum and women are ungrateful gold digging b****es if they even think about divorcing a cheating/violent husband who bought them the new Range Rover.
Good and detailed post that paints a clear picture of each type! You nailed the male feminist here.
So many emotional flashbacks I don't know where to start :').
The most exhausting part to read was the part on communication. I feel like often that is the death knell for relationships that aren't obviously abusive/toxic, when you have to debate again and again just to have your emotions and concerns taken seriously.
And then when you finally had enough of all that debating and start to question the relationship, they'll bring up the "but we are so great togetherrr" 😊😊😘😍
So yes, great point about not looking at the behaviors alone, but the intentions/values/beliefs behind them. HVM treat you well because they are just the kind of people who treat people well.